Maren sits down with singer, author, and coach Abby Wright to talk about transformation, psychedelics, and finding your personal uprising.
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Transcript
(orchestra tuning)
Hello and welcome to The Bodice Ripper Project, an exploration of sexuality, feminism, and the journey to self-empowerment through the lens of a vulnerable artist.
I’m Maren Montalbano, opera singer, coach, and writer.
In this episode, you’ll hear me chat with singer, author, and coach Abby Wright to talk about transformation, psychedelics, and finding your personal uprising.
So make yourself comfortable, loosen your bodice, and let’s begin!
(intro music plays)
Well, hello there. Thank you so much for pressing play. I am batching a couple of episodes right now, so not everything here will be super topical, but this one is the first. So I’ll talk about what’s happening in the music world.
If you’re listening to this in real time, you will know that the Delta variant of COVID is dominating the news.
While this summer has had a bunch of performances, most of them outdoors, it really doesn’t seem like we’re out of the woods yet. When it comes to the safety of actual live performances inside a building with people who aren’t masked. I don’t know what else to say.
I just did a gig or I started to do a gig. I’m not going to say where. Somewhere in Philadelphia. And if this were a non COVID year, it would have been very simple. I was hired to contract a choir to sing for a church festival, and it would have been very cut and dried show up to the rehearsal, sing the music, you get paid, done.
But it’s COVID times, so things aren’t that simple. We showed up to the first rehearsal. There were volunteers there as well as the professionals. I was the contractor for the professionals, but I did not have any hand in bringing the volunteers in, and some of those volunteers were unvaccinated.
There was no way of being able to tell how many people were vaccinated. The people who hired me and all the other singers were not interested in creating a mandate. So we had unvaccinated singers with vaccinated singers. And also, the entity that hired me did not think it was appropriate to mandate masking, even though singing is a super spreader activity. I know I’ve talked about this before.
So what happened was, we had the first rehearsal and we all sang together. Some masked, some not. All the professionals were masked. And the next day, somebody tested positive for COVID, somebody who was unvaccinated and had been unmasked and singing with all the rest of us.
So we were all exposed. And couple of rehearsals were canceled because of that. Some people pulled out, including me, because I had to keep myself healthy for another gig that I was doing. And it just created this kind of ripple effect of this understanding of, okay, if I am exposed, then I’m not going to know for three to five days because you have to wait that long to get tested if you’re vaccinated.
And in the meantime, what do you do? Right? Can you then not be around people? What if you test positive then no, you shouldn’t be around people, but then if you test negative, then you can be. And it’s just, um, it’s, it’s a mess. It’s a mess. So I don’t think we’ve really figured out the best way of doing these things yet.
I think, I know everybody is doing the best that they can. I’ve certainly posted about this on social media and the number of comments that have come back that are just like shaking their fist at the sky and saying like, you know, why can’t people be responsible for one another? Everybody’s frustrated, but honestly I’m not angry.
I’m not. I’m frustrated too. You know, I don’t want things to be complicated, but I also just know that this is all uncharted territory and we’re just figuring it out, and we’re doing the best we can with the resources that we have available.
I personally think that we are being given some incredible resources by the federal government, via the CDC, with all of its suggestions, um, recommendations.
And I don’t agree with people who don’t want to follow those recommendations, who would rather do a simple internet search for something that’s going to agree with whatever they agree with. I don’t think that that’s actual science. That’s definitely not the scientific method. Um, I’m not going to go into all of that.
I have a feeling that those of you who are listening to me probably agree with me. So I don’t need to rant about that. But all I’m saying is we are all doing the best that we can, so I don’t have any ill will towards the people whose behavior put me at risk and other people at risk. I, I hope that they’ve learned their lesson.
Um, but I also really believe that they’re just humans, and I don’t think that they were doing it out of malice. So that’s where I am.
All that being said, I’m really excited about this interview coming up. Abby is a very dear friend of mine. We’ve known each other for many, many years, and I’m very excited for all of the things that, uh, she is up to. And I’m not going to spoil it any more than that. So I hope you enjoy.
Maren: I am really excited to have on the podcast today my good friend, Abby Wright. Abigail Wright is a transformational coach, mental fitness trainer, speaker, writer, opera singer, livestreamer, and advocate for positive change. She works with emerging leaders to help them harness their minds and emotions and grow in confidence to help ignite the positive change they want to make for the world. This is an amazing bio. Thank you, Abby, and welcome to the Bodice Ripper Podcast.
Abby: Thank you so much. It’s really good to hear you today.
Maren: Thanks. It’s great to hear you too. So tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean like, that’s a long list of things that you do. And I’ve known you for a very long time so I know that you are just incredibly good at all of these things, but it’d be really great to get a chance to sort of learn how you got started. What brought you to opera, and then what brought you into becoming a transformational coach?
Abby: Hm. Well it’s funny cause one sort of led to the other, but opera specifically was really like a funny back door that I fell into because I just really wanted to sing and act my whole life. I remember when I was a little girl seeing Les Mis, and so of course I wanted to be Eponine and I wanted to be Cosette, you know like all little girls do. But I also remember vividly seeing the ensemble and thinking, “You know I could do that with the rest of my life, I think I’d be happy doing that,” when I was like eight or nine years old. So there’s this like powerful realization even as a young child that I really just wanted to be in the mix, that I really wanted to be part of that world. Um, sorry Disney. I’m magically distracted by your cat. It’s really wonderful that he also is excited about singing today.
Maren: He always is. And you know, he actually has an uncanny ability to know exactly when I am recording. It’s like he’s just trying to be like, “Hey, I’m here.”
Abby: It’s pretty brilliant. And you know, of course one of the skills that we learn as coaches is to listen on that higher-level listening, and bring it into the conversation. We’re actually not supposed to ignore it. So here I am not ignoring this, the singing cat.
And yeah, I think that there’s something about who I am that has always wanted to use my voice for something meaningful, for something powerful. And I fell into opera because my high school choir director, Christine Bass, who’s actually really outstanding and well-known for her work with choirs, she just really inspired me. And I kinda thought I wanted to be her, which, that’s not really true. I want to be me. And so I got swayed in a different direction.
I went to school at Westminster Choir College for Music Ed, and they just happened to have some of the best choirs in the world. And I got into Westminster Choir as soon as I could my sophomore year, and immediately started singing at Carnegie Hall when I was 19, and started singing professionally in opera choruses when I was 19, almost before I’d even really sat and seen one. And I just, I really loved being part of operas, listening to, being enveloped by the sound of an orchestra.
The amazing way that choirs actually, you know they’ve done these amazing studies that show that when you’re in a choir your circulatory system and your heart rate and all these different things actually sort of combine. Like you all mesh. And it’s such an amazing thing. It’s such an amazing feeling. And if I ever doubted that, boy, the pandemic really showed me how much of what makes me happy in life really comes out of ensemble singing.
Which is interesting because now I’m examining some of that and wondering how much of it I want to do because my mission in life is changing. But my mission up to this point I think, before I became a coach, has really always been to be a part of meaningful works of art that help people to think and grow and change and evolve. And now I’m more directly helping people grow and change and evolve, and that’s very satisfying to me in a way that I never expected.
If you want me to keep going, you did ask me sort of how I became a coach as well.
Maren: I did, yes. Yes. I don’t want to interrupt too much because I love everything that you’re talking about. Before we get into the coach thing there’s two things that I want to touch on. One is this idea of wanting to be just like your teacher. You know, I think that a lot of us have that, especially when we’re younger. And it’s perfectly normal, right? Like there’s somebody that you look up to and you see that they’re successful in whatever it is that they’re doing. They’re certainly making an impact on you. And so to want to be like that, you know, I think is actually a good thing. It’s just that, of course you don’t want to be exactly that. You want to be yourself.
Abby: Well, for sure. And that’s part of actually an article that I’m writing right now in preparation for a book that I’m writing too, is sort of facing our domestication. And sometimes that domestication is put upon us, and sometimes it’s something that we just naturally follow. Like being a child in a four person family unit and then thinking, “of course I want to get married and have two children,” you know? But then as you get older maybe you realize that’s not actually the case. That’s just the experience that I was brought into this world with.
And that’s the same thing with this teacher. Like she was very inspirational, she’s still very inspirational to me, and I love her dearly, but I don’t want to be her. And I enjoyed that journey of learning how to teach, and that’s all part of me as a coach, and a speaker, and an author. Like, that is all part of my experience. I’m grateful to have had it. But yeah, over time I’ve had to really relearn what it means to look in a mirror.
Maren: Yeah, that’s so powerful. Okay, so now let’s talk about the transformational thing.
Abby: Yeah, so I think the transformational thing started with my own transformation. Gosh, so many things. So I went from, I became a singer. I did become a professional classical singer right out of undergrad, and eventually went got my masters at University of Maryland. And then I, the Metropolitan Opera, I sang for them five years in a row in auditions thinking, “Okay, I’m just going to keep showing up until they either tell me to go away or they hire me.”
And the year that Maestro Palumbo came in to the Metropolitan Opera, I was hired for the extra chorus and moved to New York City. And I wanted that job so desperately. There’s a full-time version of that job and I wanted it so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so badly. I thought it was going to be my savior of all things because it’s like the unicorn of all performing jobs. It’s a mythological beast. You know, you get six figures and stable work until you retire, and you have pension and benefits and it’s so stable.
Maren: Yeah, there are not that many jobs like that out there, so for sure. Yeah.
Abby: In the United States it’s certainly the only one that pays as well as it does to give you the comfortable living that it does. I mean, it’s really an incredible job. There are a couple of other full-time chorus jobs in the United States, but it by far is the creme de la creme. And I was up for it. I actually got called back for a position a couple of times.
And the first time I was told that they would have hired me, but the person who was going to retire decided not to for a year, she delayed it. So that like amped up the stakes to like 120 out of 100, right? And it was just like, “Ah!” And I was so nervous, and all of my sabotaging voices, all my survival mechanisms kicked in and they made that audition so freaking hard. And I just bombed it. The second time I had the chance I totally bombed that audition. I was breathing in the middle of words. I went sharp. Like all my musicianship went out the window cause I was just so nervous. I wanted it so badly. You know like those things that you just crave so much that you choke them to death.
Maren: Yeah.
Abby: And so boy, was I devastated. I was plunged into this black hole because the thing I wanted more than life itself, I really had let this fester, didn’t work out for me. And I’m also a freelance artist living in Manhattan having to support myself in the winter. And one of the shows, Turandot, that I had been doing at the Met ended in like February. And I hate winter, and I get depressed. And it was just like, “Oh my God, what am I going to do?” I wanted to die every day.
And there are other things in my life that led to that, some trauma from childhood and stuff that I needed to sort out with a therapist. And so I went to therapy because I was just like, “I can’t do this anymore.” And really at my bottomless pit, like I had this idea that I was always going to be complicated with these complicated emotions, and that my brain chemistry was a certain way and I would never change. I was really wrapped up in quite the narrative.
And this therapist gave me a book called The Brain That Changes Itself. Norman Doidge is the author. It’s a really wonderful sort of pop psychology book about neuroscience and neuroplasticity. And this was in like 2009, 2010, and neuroplasticity was kind of a newish concept. And the idea that you can change your brain, the idea that you can heal past traumas, the idea that you can rewire your brain to learn things differently, to become a different person, to expand in different ways, opened my mind and my heart and my soul to possibility that I really did not know existed. And I started working with her on various things that really helped to heal me in beautiful ways.
And at the time I was dating this wonderful person named Elliot, thank you Elliot, who recommended that, because I had nothing to do and I didn’t know where my next paycheck was going to come from and I was freaking out, and he recommended that I start writing a blog. Cause well again, we’re talking back in 2009-10, blogs were very popular. And I’m a very good writer and he knew that about me. And he was like, “Why don’t you, you really love writing, you’re really good at it, why don’t you start writing a blog?” So I decided to write this blog called Skydiving For Pearls. It still exists on WordPress if you go to skydivingforpearls.com. I recommend going way back to the beginning and reading it from there because that’s where it’s really interesting.
I did for six months straight, and then for quite some time beyond that, five days a week I did something that was outside of my comfort zone. Scary, different, unusual, weird, something that would help me learn how to acclimate myself to change. Because I decided I needed to create a structure. Well, I either needed to get a stable job and stop making myself crazy, or I needed to become the person who loves change. Because freelancing, as you know Maren, all about change all the time.
If you’re thinking about creating a side hustle, or a business, or anything where you have to make your own income and concern yourself with where your next paycheck is going to come from, you have to acclimatize yourself to change. You absolutely have to. I decided to create a structure to just like lean into change, find out what was on the other side of all these walls of, “I can’t, I won’t, I don’t,” and see if maybe my best life was actually over there. And it turns out it was.
I never wanted to go skydiving. Of course, because I called this blog Skydiving For Pearls, meaning like you know, doing scary things for pearls of wisdom, my dear friend Sarah, the next day was like, “All right, love. When are we going skydiving?” And I was like, “Fuck. Now I can’t say no to this.” And I ended up skydiving, running a marathon, donating my eggs, doing a performance in front of thousands of people where I was a nude opera singer in this like wild performance art piece that just rocked my world. I’ve done so many crazy things that are larger than life that I never would have done if I hadn’t done this experiment.
And it really did, it transformed me into somebody who loves change. And now my passion over the years has developed to the point where now my mission is to help change makers launch their personal uprisings in the world. My mission is to help people in this massive time of change between like climate change, technology, pandemic, is just like a very small taste.
And I don’t mean to scare people. I don’t mean to put people in a scarcity place. But it is, it’s a small taste of the massive changes that are coming to our society. And I want to help people because most people are a little bit closer to where I used to be, where they want to be on their comfortable couch with their mac and cheese watching their favorite TV show. And listen, there’s nothing wrong with doing that. I do that a lot.
Maren: Absolutely.
Abby: But when we get into these boxes where we’re doing the things that we’re always comfortable doing and we say, “No, no, I don’t want to try that.” Why? “I just don’t want to, I don’t need that. I’ve learned all the lessons I need to learn from this thing that I did when I was young. I don’t need to do that anymore. I’m good.” When you do that, when you like sink into your couch and make those deep rivets, you fester.
When you climb over the walls and you lean into change, not only can you get comfortable with and withstand the massive changes that are coming to us, but you can actually create meaningful change for our world. And that’s what I want to do. Cause I think if we’re aiming to survive this stuff we’re not going to make it. We need to aim to thrive together and that’s not gonna happen unless lots of people are leaning into and creating meaningful change in the world.
Maren: That is so beautiful. One thing that you said that really struck me was this idea of a personal uprising. Talk about that. What is a personal uprising? Like first of all, it sounds so powerful. But then also like supposing I’m sitting on my couch eating mac and cheese, like do I really have a personal uprising? Like, I think that the people who are listening to this also have a personal uprising, maybe they don’t realize it. So talk a little bit about that.
Abby: So you know, as coaches we learn to ask really powerful questions, and some of them are just so powerful that you end up reusing them. One of them, when you can really get out of your own way is, “What do you really want?” But a lot of people aren’t in that place yet, right? They’re still on the couch eating mac and cheese. I do love mac and cheese. Mac and cheese lovers, I do not fault you. But there’s this great question, and there are so many different ways to ask it, but like some of the iterations of this question are like, “If you removed all of the obstacles of time and money, what would you do if you could do anything you wanted?” Or, “What would you do if you knew you could not fail?” Or, “What would you do if you could try anything?” And so many of us don’t give ourselves the permission to try a new thing.
I read an article recently that was about how emotionally intelligent people make decisions, and it was talking about a two-way door decision versus a one-way door decision. This is cool. So most decisions are two-way door decisions, where if you walk through that door and you don’t like the decision you made or you don’t like how it turned out, you can walk back through the door. You can make another decision that will reverse it, or at least go back to sort of where you were. Now there are certain decisions that are one-way doors, like killing someone for example.
Maren: But let’s hope nobody who’s listening to this has that particular decision. But yes, yeah.
Abby: You know, try not to do that. Blowing up a relationship, you know, might be a one-way door. Making certain job changes might be a two-way door, might be a one-way door. If you were to, for example, say yes to a contract and then cancel it, that would be a one-way door decision. But most decisions, the vast majority of them are two-way door decisions.
And this article was talking about how the vast majority of people don’t regret making a two-way door decision. You think about moving to Seattle. Move to Seattle, give it a try, see what happens. Most people don’t regret trying the thing. Most people regret wanting to do the thing and never trying it, letting the fear stop them. That is the personal uprising.
The personal uprising is trying the thing, trying the thing that you’re like, “Oh, if I could do anything I wanted in life, this is what I would do.” If that’s a two-way door decision, freaking try it. I have goosebumps. I love, and especially if it’s about making a positive difference in the world, cause we really need that right now. But sometimes it’s about coming out of the box that you’re in, you know? I mean, we’ll use for example gay members of our society who have to come out of the closet. That is a personal uprising.
Maren: Yeah.
Abby: Quitting your job is a personal uprising. Starting a new career as a personal uprising. Breaking up with a boyfriend where you have these difficult patterns that aren’t serving you anymore. That’s a personal uprising. Letting go of a friendship that isn’t serving you anymore. That’s a big personal uprising. Sometimes it’s leaning into things. Sometimes it’s letting go of things. But in any case it’s doing the thing that taps into your values, that taps into what Really matters to you, and saying yes to who you are and what you want for your life and for the world.
Maren: That’s really powerful, Abby. Listen, saying yes to who you are, really. Like saying yes to who you are. As you were talking I was thinking about, you were talking about like the two-way door decision where maybe backing out of a contract is a one-way door. Cause you really can’t be like, “Oh, never mind. I changed my mind.”
Abby: Well and often when you back out of a contract you’re burning a bridge.
Maren: Yeah. But there may be times when before you sign a contract, say. You know, somebody approaches you with something and it seems kind of interesting, but you’re not sure. The reason I’m bringing this up is there’s something that’s going on in my life. You know, I always like to bring my own examples in.
Abby: Let’s do it.
Maren: So somebody asked me to do a gig. It seems like an interesting place, seems like an interesting gig, pays not that great. And I said yes, but I didn’t sign anything, you know? However, now this person is coming at me with all sorts of different stuff. Like basically, it’s turning into a lot of work. It should’ve just been me showing up and singing a couple of things that I really like, and now it’s turning into like me having to come up with a full program. And I did not sign up for that. So for me–
Abby: You’re feeling a little overused.
Maren: Yeah, exactly. So there’s boundaries there that I need to establish. But for me the saying “yes” to myself may mean that I will have to say “no” to this person.
Abby: Yes. And I want to go back a little bit, if we can, to the first thing you said about the gig. And I’d like to know what your thoughts are. No, I’d like to know how you really feel about the word “interesting.”
Maren: Oh, the reason I say interesting is that it’s not like most gigs. So it’s in a different place that I’ve never been. Yeah it’s in a different place, it’s with a different group of people that I’m not that familiar with. However, this place is well known within certain communities. So there might be some caché to performing at this place.
Abby: So the benefits to this gig from what I’m hearing from you are somewhat financial, but not in the way you’d really like it to be, and potentially some networking stuff. How do you feel about the way it aligns with your values and what you really care about?
Maren: I think it aligns very much with my values. This place has like a very progressive stance on stuff. And one of the reasons that they reached out to me was because I have been very vocal about promoting works of women, you know, women composers. So you know.
Abby: Well that’s wonderful.
Maren: Yeah, yeah.
Abby: Great. So then I would say yeah, for you your personal uprising would be one of two things. Setting boundaries very clearly, and being direct and honest, but kind in the way that you are. Maren, right? Like showing up in that room. This is the start of my book, and I think probably the most important thing for anyone to master, and it’s awesome. Like the minutes that I find myself doing this I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s when I’m doing the thing. This is great.” When you show up fully 100% as Maren in any room without apology, that is your personal uprising. So what would it look like for you to show up in this room with this man who- I’m assuming it’s a man, I’m sorry.
Maren: Yeah, it is.
Abby: Who has hired you. With this person who hired you, showing up fully a hundred percent as yourself in setting boundaries. If you do that and see how he responds, that’s going to be a personal uprising. And if you continue to stand your ground and/or say “no,” which is another powerful boundary.
Maren: Yes.
Abby: I think that’s a really huge thing for you.
Maren: I think so too, yeah. Everybody’s like, you just heard what a coaching session sounds like. Yeah. The thing that for me I have been working on, and you know this Abby, is boundaries. You know, this is so important for me. In order for me to be truly me I have to establish who I am and who the other people are.
Abby: And what a better artist that makes you when you can, because then you don’t feel squashed. You don’t feel boxed in. You don’t feel like somebody is taking advantage of you and de-valuing you in the art that you’re trying to create. Nobody wants to create art when somebody’s stepping on their foot. And that’s the thing with setting boundaries.
If somebody is stepping on your foot, you tell them. Nobody gets mad. If somebody is standing on your foot and you go, “Hey, you’re standing on my foot. Would you mind moving, please?” You know like, you could also scream at them and yell at them and tell them they’re a terrible person for standing on your foot. That would be a bad move, right? There’s a way to do this in line with who you are, and just say, “Hey, you know, you may not realize this, but you’re standing on my foot.”
Maren: Yeah. Yeah.
Abby: No one in their right mind would let somebody just stand on their foot without telling them.
Maren: But there are so many, and I’m one of them, there’re so many people who are like, “Well but, you know, um, it’s fine. I can take it.” And this is like who I am trying to move away from being because it’s not serving me. And again, I’m really glad we’re talking about this because I think that the people who are listening to this will also find something helpful here, that we all have moments where something kind of awkward happens, and we have to remember who we are and stand in integrity with ourselves.
Abby: Yeah. I mean, think about it for a moment. How does it feel in your body and your spirit when you start to apologize for who you are?
Maren: Oh, it feels terrible. It feels very like limiting and small. Even right now like my shoulders feel like they want to hunch over, you know?
Abby: Yeah, I feel it too. I feel kinda like this grossness in my chest. You know and it’s, some of us go through our entire lives apologizing for whom we are. I’m really a huge fan of nonviolent communication, and there’s a teacher of nonviolent communication who has brought mindfulness into it named Oren Jay Sofer. Find him at orenjaysofer.com. He does these amazing classes teaches about mindfulness, and the way that you talk with people, and to yourself and about yourself. And God, some of the language that we use to apologize for ourselves all the time like, “Oh, I never do this. I can’t do this. I’m so terrible at this. I wish I could just someday. Gosh, I’m so,” and like, “I hate that I do this this way.” And we label ourselves in these mean, vicious, brutal ways.
One of the methodologies that, I know you know this Maren, like one of the methodologies I love to work with is called Positive Intelligence. And I love the way they get at accessing empathy. Self-empathy and empathy for other people. One of the ways that you can access that is by looking back at yourself as a child. Like two, three years old, before all of this domestication and survival instinct, before all that stuff got layered on top of you, and like really looking at this pure, beautiful being of a child. And spending some time just like visualizing yourself and looking at who that being is. What does it look like when that being is doing what really lights them up? And really remembering being with that self as a child.
And then if you stop and you like separate yourself from that visualization, and for a second think about what if that child did something terribly wrong and you had to beat up on them? And I don’t usually let people sit in that thought for too long because it’s a painful one and most people can’t do it, which is great. And that’s the idea. The kindness, the goodness that you would bestow on the person you love most in the world, on your beloved pet, on yourself as a child, why on earth would you give yourself anything less?
And we are constantly beating up on ourselves. We are constantly apologizing for who we are. And if I could give every single person in the world a gift it would be to celebrate, and love, and show up as without apology, the true being that you are.
Maren: That’s so beautiful, Abby. I think that you’ve already given this gift right just now. I hope everybody in the world gets to hear it.
Abby: Oh, you’re so sweet. I love you.
Maren: I love you too, Abby. So let’s talk a little bit about, um-
Abby: Take me wherever you want, I’m here.
Maren: Yeah, okay. So, I know that you have had a few kind of alternative experiences. You’ve worked with psychedelics. And I’m curious, like how has that contributed to your growth, not just as a human being, but as an artist? Talk about that a little bit.
Abby: Before I get into this I want a tiny, tiny disclaimer section here. So I’m aware that it’s not legal everywhere in the world. And so you know, be mindful of that as you need to be mindful of that. But more importantly, the thing about psychedelics, do your research. I’m a big fan of this book called How To Change Your Mind. Well that’s funny, is it the same? It might be a different title than the same one I mentioned before, but it’s very similar. It’s by Michael Pollan, P-O-L-L-A-N. He’s a very respected Harvard journalist, and he goes through all of the history of psychedelics, all of the history of testing of psychedelics back in the sixties before it was shut down. And he himself tries several different psychedelics. I believe he does, if I remember correctly because it’s a long book. He does mushrooms, and LSD. And he smokes toad which is another, it’s like the Everest of psychedelics he calls it, it’s kind of wild. And also does ayahuasca which is the ingested of DMT, the same similar molecule.
Anyway, I won’t go too deep into that. But what I’ll say is that he explores all of it and he talks about all of his own experiences, and it’s a really meaningful, thoughtful, well-written book. I highly recommend to anybody who’s interested in exploring those. I think it’s a good place to start in terms of research.
And I also just really quickly want to say, if you are younger than 27 if you’re a woman, if you’re younger than 25 if you’re a man, as with all substances, especially with marijuana and with any psychedelic compound, please be very aware that if you have any history of mental illness in your family you need to wait until your brain is fully formed before experimenting with any of this stuff, especially marijuana, especially psychedelics. I’m not kidding. It’s a real studied thing where you are exponentially more likely to activate the dormant gene for schizophrenia if you have it. So please, if you have any history of mental illness in your family, do be careful. It’s really important. I am not about breaking anyone’s brains. So that’s what I want to say about that. I’m sure there’s a whole other conversation about why women’s brains fully form at 25 and men’s form at 27, but we won’t go into that.
For my own experience, I’ve been very fortunate to be able to travel a little bit and mindfully explore mushrooms, and LSD, and ayahuasca. I do have some friends who have also smoked toad. I have also smoked DMT, although I am terrible at smoking things.
Maren: Which is probably good as a singer, you know?
Abby: Yeah I’m terrible at smoking things. So I don’t go as deep with anything I need to smoke cause I just ended up coughing it up.
And I know, I want to say I know that there’s like a stigma around things like LSD, acid, anything that’s developed synthetically. What I will say about all of these compounds is that I do not see and I know the researchers have not found them to be at all addictive substances. They’re very high maintenance experiences in that they really take you out of reality if you do a solid enough dose. If you’re not microdosing they really take you out of reality, and it’s not something you can do lightly.
If you’re trying it for the first time please get an education about it. Please get a trip sitter. Have somebody who’s sober to sit with you who’s a positive influence in your life. Don’t bring Eeyore into the room, you’re going have a terrible time. Because the amazing thing about psychedelics is that they’re very susceptible to influence. So whatever you think is probably going to happen, if you think you’re going to have a bad trip, if you’re convinced of it, you probably will. So maybe try coming into it with a good set and setting and a good perspective about it.
There are fun things to do, like watch Dark Side of the Moon while listening to The Wizard of Oz soundtrack, but I don’t recommend that for the first time. I really recommend doing it intentionally with journaling, with some really good intention as you sit in it. And I know I’m going through the how-to way more than I need to right now. What you’ve asked me is about my own experience.
Maren: This is really interesting though. So thank you. Thank you for going into it.
Abby: Well I think it’s important, because it is becoming legalized or decriminalized in some places. DC and Oregon just voted this past November to decriminalize it. Oregon is moving forward with psilocybin-assisted therapy, which is awesome. The city of Denver, you can grow mushrooms. I believe it’s Santa Cruz, where all plant medicine, in California, is actually legal. You can do ayahuasca legally. All of these different plant medicines are legal. There are also like churches, religious organizations, where you can do ayahuasca legally.
And again I just want to say, please do your research because even though it’s legal, it may not be a responsible organization. Get reviews. And I know this is hard. I know this is hard, but there’s the internet. Uh, if you want to do things without people knowing that you’re doing things, because you’re worried about your reputation or whatever, use a T-O-R Tor browser. You know, be mindful, be careful, but do your research and make sure that you’re going to responsible organizations, because there are people that will take your money and take advantage of you.
Especially with ayahuasca be careful because there are quote unquote ‘shamans’ who will mix the medicine with other things that they’re not supposed to mix it with and it gets dangerous, and you have to be careful about diet. So if you go into the experience and the shaman that you have located is coming to you with ideas of how to be intentional, and diets, and ways to be careful, and really shepherd yourself through the situation meaningfully, that’s probably someone you can trust. If they’re going at it with no care, be mindful and find a place that’s going into it with more care. Because again, if you’re going through a personal uprising, you deserve all the care you can get can give yourself. So set up your set and setting for success. That’s the most important thing to remember.
The first time I did it, I did not set up my set and setting for success. I got lost. A bunch of strangers found me and took care of me, and it was really meaningful, and I got lucky. Don’t put yourself in that situation. But you asked me what I’ve learned.
Maren: Yeah.
Abby: A lot. I have a whole journal full of like wild thoughts and explorations and expansive ideas. I mean, I think the most profound thing I’ve ever written in this journal was, “The greatest gift of love is to be a willing layer of sediment creation.” I mean to say that I’ve had the deepest, most profound realizations, and thoughts, and experiences is an understatement. And I understand there are other ways to access this. You can meditate. You can find your own spiritual practices that can help bring you to a place of deep, profound realization, and psychedelics are another tool.
They are not a recreational drug. They really aren’t. Some people use them that way and I just don’t get it. Like anytime on I’m on LSD my senses are so heightened, and if somebody is playing loud music I’m just like, “Oh my God, please stop.” Like, I just don’t understand.
For me it is about deep, personal realization. And honestly it’s part of how I’ve gotten to this place of knowing that I want to work with changemakers, of knowing that I want to work with people who want to make a personal difference in the world. It showed me deeply my values. It showed me deeply, and with beautiful tears, how much I care about the planet. It compels me into a state of action. It compels me to want to write. It compels me to want a coach, to want to help, to want to keep humanity on this planet.
And you asked me in our prep questions how it helped me as a singer. And I was like, “Oh, whoa, I don’t know. Let me think about that.” And I found a couple of journal passages that I’ve written that helped me not only in life, but also with my singing, and also with my coaching.
” To be alone is to be connected with all life, to be alive. I want deep forgiveness. I give deep forgiveness. The perpetual letting go of each moment is all we have. The perpetual letting go of all we have is this moment.”
“I understand my anxieties. As I let all of creation pass through my mind and being. In that moment I am a traveler through all space and time. There is nothing apart from which we let go, revisit, and let go again in the continuous cycle of existence. As I walk along this journey I can see that I am not alone. We do this for expansion and for the uplifting of all beings.”
And then there’s a really funny woo-woo, like hippie thing that I wrote, “Let’s be tardigrades in space and fairy shrimp in the wind.”
Maren: I love it.
Abby: “But the truth is that I know everything and nothing.” And it goes on for quite some time. But that idea of letting go of each moment. That in fact all that actually is is this moment, and this moment, and this moment, and this moment. The past, the future, they do not exist. And that it’s literally just this continuous moment of creation that life is.
As a singer if you’re not setting up the next pitch perfectly, if you’re not judging the thing you just sang. This is what W. Stephen Smith, my teacher who I do want to be more like all the time, I call him my Zen guru. He’s amazing voice teacher. He’s the chair at Northwestern, super love him. He always says, “If you are not creating in the moment, you are not creating.”
Maren: That’s really amazing. And it’s so cool because this is something that I’ve been thinking about a lot too. The fact that all we have is right now, and that we are constantly in change. You know, our bodies are changing in every level, and like at the molecular level, at every single second, you know? And how you are so interested in change, and being comfortable with change. Well of course we have to be comfortable in change, because that’s all we have.
Abby: I love the way you just said that. “Well, of course we have be comfortable with change.” You know, that is so not normal.
Maren: Right.
Abby: I’ve looked into change management, and it’s all about managing change. It’s all about minimizing too much change, helping people not get too overwhelmed. And like believe me, I get that. But also we need to stop treating change like it’s an illness.
Maren: Right, exactly.
Abby: If you walk into a psychiatrist’s office sometimes they will hand you this long questionnaire about all the different changes you’ve had in your life. And that’s to give them an idea of how stressed you might be, because even positive change can cause stress. Well there are also now studies out there that say that the way you look at change, the way you look at stress or challenges, if you look at them as a challenge to overcome, as something that enlivens you, it’s less stressful. It can actually help you and help your body chemistry if you look at change as a challenge, as a positive thing. But if you’re looking at it as like, “Oh, I’ve just been through too many changes lately,” you’re going to be stressed.
Maren: Totally, yeah.
Abby: Take time to breathe. Take time to be. We’re so focused on productivity and doing, like yes, we need to take time to be. But change is not some weird creepy plague to be avoided. It’s not.
Maren: Exactly. I love this. It’s true, you know? And to go back to the mac and cheese thing, there’s time for mac and cheese, right, and there’s time for going out and being the most amazing, awesome, version of yourself. And you know what? Sometimes the most amazing, awesome version of yourself is sitting on the couch eating mac and cheese, just not all the time. Because every single moment is going to be different. You know, you’re going to finish the bowl, that’s it.
Abby: And it is very okay to baby step into all of this. You do not have to agree to go skydiving on the second day. You can decide, “you know what today my first step is going to be changing which cheese I use in my mac and cheese.” It’s really okay to start small. And it’s fun.
I created this like funny little construct, I know you know it Maren, called mystery week. We’ll start with mystery day as a concept here. So a lot of times for those of us who plan a lot, our schedules are so packed we don’t really have room for spontaneity. So sometimes for those people who like to plan I like to give them mystery day, where they plan a day in which they plan nothing. You show up to the day, you have no appointments, you have nothing to do. No one is expecting anything of you at all. And you can say yes to new things.
Maren: I have done this at your suggestion several times and it is awesome. It really is. Yeah, and you can have a mystery day. You can have a mystery week. But I like your idea of just starting with one day. That’s a good baby step. What’s the worst that can happen, honestly?
Abby: You can see right now, I know they can’t, you can see me smirking. I just want to share with you guys I really believe in what I’m talking about to the point that when I think about something that makes me uncomfortable, that I haven’t tried before, I get really lit up and excited. Unless it’s dangerous, obviously I’m not saying like, go put yourself in physical harm. Sometimes we’re afraid for a good reason, right? Okay, so be aware of that, and be kind to yourself. Don’t push yourself into things you really don’t want to do.
Yeah, I get so excited now when like I hit an idea or I’m like, “Oh that’s going to be really uncomfortable. I want to try that.” When you were saying like mystery day, mystery week, I’m like, “I need to give myself a mystery month.”
Maren: Ooh, that’s exciting. Yeah, and that does like, even me thinking about it I’m like, “Oh, that seems scary. I don’t know. I don’t know if I could go a full month of mystery.” But like that-
Abby: I want to do that. I’m clapping over here. Oh my God. That’s going to be so wild. Maybe that’s what I’ll give myself for Christmas this year.
Maren: Ooh, there you go. Well, okay. Keep an eye on the time here, but I want to ask you the last question, which is the question I ask everybody. When I talk about bodice rippers, I use the bodice as a metaphor for the thing that is restricting us, and we want to rip it open and let our true selves out. So what’s the bodice, the metaphorical bodice, that you are currently ripping off.
Abby: Yeah. This is the hard question for me. So lest you all think that I’ve actually mastered all of this, there are still changes that feel like, “Oh my God, this is a one-way door,” that I know are two-way doors. And right now I’m trying to breathe through. And this is hard to admit, because I know you may have some people in our industry listening to this, but I’m going to admit this anyway, and that’s a little scary for me and I’m okay with it.
I am currently at a gig. And I will not disclose what that gig is. It’s a gig I have loved for a very long time. There are several gigs that I have loved for a very long time. I love being with my colleagues. I love singing. I love being enveloped in that sound. I love getting really deep into the meaning of a meaningful opera, or a meaningful work of art, or meaningful work of music. I love that. I love that. I love that.
I have been the very lucky beneficiary of a splendid career for over 20 years. Again, starting when I was in college, at Carnegie Hall. Like, I am so fortunate. I’ve sung opposite Santino Fontana as a soloist in Carnegie Hall. I’ve sung at the Metropolitan Opera, like, Kennedy Center. Like I love my job. I love what I do. And I am seriously considering giving most or all of it up.
As I arrived to this gig out of COVID this year I experienced what we sometimes experience as ensemble singers, which is that I was really not used very much. And I was feeling kind of ignored, in the background, a little bit feeling like set dressing.
And look, some productions are that way. We don’t have control over how much music is in an opera for us, especially as women. Let’s be honest, there’s less music for us usually as ensemble singers. Whole Wagner operas with no women ensembles at all, you know. It’s a thing that we don’t actually talk about. I wish we would. But anyway, I digress.
It’s sort of like what we were talking about with contracts. I could say no to every contract where I know the chorus isn’t being used very much. I could say no to every contract where I don’t think that all have a role in a meaningful work of art, right? Maybe it’s my hundredth Carmen or something, and I’m like, “I don’t really know that this is inspiring audiences in the way I want it to.” Right? I could say, “no,” to all of those things. And if I did, I just wouldn’t be hired anymore. We both know that that’s a thing.
Maren: Yeah.
Abby: And that’s why these decisions feel a little one-way doorish. But I am a singer. I will always be a singer. And no matter what I choose, even if it means I’m not going to be singing with this opera company, that opera company, whatever whatever. If five years from now I say, “Actually, I kind of want to try this again.” I probably could find a way to try it somewhere, even if not at home in New York or whatever. Who knows, right?
So, my mission in life used to be: “I want to be a part of meaningful works of art that make audiences think.” I’m realizing that even that mission, I don’t have a lot of control over that as an ensemble singer, and I don’t like that.
I’m very much looking forward to in March I’m singing a solo role, and it wouldn’t matter if I were ensemble or solo actually, in an opera about Emmett Till. And if you’re not familiar with Emmett Till, he was a young black man who was visiting the Delta South from Chicago and supposedly whistled at a white woman, and was beaten brutally. His body was mangled. I mean to the point of, trigger warning, his eye being out of the socket, his ear being dislocated. And he was thrown in a river or lake or something, and eventually floated back up and they found his body. And it was so unrecognizable the only way they could tell that it was him was by the silver ring, his father’s silver ring.
And his mother, God bless her, was so amazing. She came down and said, “I want an open casket funeral and I’m inviting reporters, because I want people to see what they did to my baby.” And it was Emmett Till that Rosa Parks was thinking about when she refused to move on the bus. And that sparked the Civil Rights movement in a really big way. It was part of what sparked the Civil Rights movement.
So you see, like I’m getting worked up talking about this right now. It is very meaningful to me. I think it’s very meaningful. It’s really important, especially right now. Well kind of always has been for us to look at the vast injustices in our world and in our society. And I’m just so grateful.
You see like, I am so grateful to Claire Coss the librettist, and Mary D. Watkins the composer, who have written this beautiful work. My friend, Robert Mack, who hired me, and Claire, and Mary especially, who just continued to believe in me, and in every iteration of the workshop of this opera. They’ve written me more music. They love what I’m doing. They love the passion that I have for this and what I’m bringing to it. I’m also fortunate I’m a fictional character, so I get to be the only nice white character in the show. It’s so meaningful and I’m so looking forward to that.
So that I want to continue doing insofar as I can. But I’ve always known that singing is a hard income to make and that if it’s not fueling me in the way that it always has, anything else I try, that two-way door, would probably pay better and would help set up my future better, if I’m no longer feeling satisfied. And at this moment I can honestly say 90% of the time I’m no longer feeling satisfied. And that’s sad because look, I love this gig that I’m at right now. I love my family here, my friends. I love the work that we do. I actually think the final product of this whole thing is actually really beautiful and inspiring and meaningful, but the process is not always, and I do feel a little like set dressing.
And as a coach I’ve come to realize, I help my clients work on mission statements, and my own right now, and it’s actually morphing, but my own at the moment is, “I am the Olympic torch that ignites change makers to launch their personal uprisings.” Right now doing the work that I’m doing as a singer I feel like my torch is in a basement no one is seeing it. And I’m not okay with that. I’m really not okay with that.
My bodice is my past self. And I love her. And I honor her. And I’m super grateful for her and all the work that she’s done, and all the people that have influenced who I’ve become. And singing is a absolutely crucial part of that. I would not be who I am without singing. It wouldn’t have happened. No way. Because I wouldn’t have been uncomfortable enough to have to become someone else. This is a powerful realization for me to be having right now.
And I am committed to contracts I have said yes to for this year. And I am going to sit with it. And I’m actually really hoping Washington National Opera in DC hires me for something because I love them and I love working for them too. I’d love to go down there and see if that’s satisfying enough. Like maybe it will be, I don’t know. It’s a wonderful community and they’re really empowering with their ensemble work.
But my primary focus in life now is to help people make a positive change in the world. And I think I can do that more as a coach, as an author, and as a public speaker. And I’m considering what other job, what other J-O-B, I might want to try to help set up my future and to help me get off the ground with all of those things. I’m really excited about the possibilities. I’m also considering whether I want to continue living in New York City, which is wild. I can’t believe I’m even remotely considering that.
I think the bodice is the groove that I’ve been working. Wildly, you know I’m such an extrovert, and I’ve really been overbalanced on the doing and productivity side of life, and accomplishing, and achievement and all this stuff. And the pandemic really taught me, and coaching has really taught me how to love myself enough to enjoy being alone, that being alone can be a superpower for me. I had no idea that I can create without needing to be at a party all the time, which is sort of how singing feels. You know with our ensembles and our colleagues. Like, I don’t actually need to be at a party all the time. And the inner work that I’m doing actually is kind of a party all on its own.
So being able to quiet myself enough to write. Being able to just be, and inspire, and exist, and be enough. I’m enough. I’m actually more than enough. I am sufficient, I am resourceful, and I’m really happy with whom I am and whom I’m becoming. I’m actually not worried. Not just because like, “I know how to make it as a singer, so therefore I can do anything.” And there’s some truth to that. But I know between who I am and the people that I love and the people that love me, I have all the resources I need to take a step into the unknown.
Maren: That’s amazing, and what a wonderfully complex and complete answer. That really was, thank you so much Abby. Something that came to mind was the image of ripping off a bodice is a somewhat violent one, right, but while you were talking about being enough and being sufficient, it almost felt like you were just deliberately taking off the bodice. That there wasn’t so much a violent thing, that it was just very like, “All right. Here, it’s coming off, and I’m underneath here, and look at me.” And that’s great.
Abby: And that’s the thing about a bodice, right? We’re all afraid of our own nakedness. I do not need to apologize for being the beautiful, wonderful, incredible human being that I am, that we all are. I do not need to apologize for my gorgeous nakedness.
Maren: That is so true. Yeah.
Abby: And it’s a bit raw to come on here and publicly say, “Yeah, I am considering giving up ensemble singing.” Ahh! That’s right world, I’m going to admit that. And I’m not going to worry about whether that means people don’t hire me anymore. I don’t care. I am here for this. I am here for what life is bringing to me and for what I am bringing to life, and I’m not going to apologize for this anymore. I deserve to be more.
Maren: Yes you do, Abby. You really do.
Abby: And I have so much more to give, and I’m willing to show up and do that.
Maren: Tell me how people can find you online if they want to work with you or just you know, follow you, see what you’re doing.
Abby: The best place to find me as a coach is to go to time for, F-O-R, timeforchange.coach. It’s a pretty easy one to remember. Or if you just want to find me overall, including like some of my performances, and some of my projects, and hopefully eventually my writing, you can find me at AbigailWright.com.
If you really want to go down a rabbit hole you can see my livestreaming at DLive.tv/burnergrl, B-U-R-N-E-R-G-R-L, there’s no “I” in that one. And that’s my wild rabbit hole if you want to join me there.
Maren: I’m so glad I brought you on and that you have been able to talk about all of this. Really there’s so much that we covered. And I’m just so grateful that you’ve brought your wisdom to my audience. Thank you so much for coming on.
Abby: I love you so much, and I love the work that you’re doing. I love the way that you’re inspiring performers and humans of all types to rip off their bodices, to believe in the things that they can create for themselves, for the world around them and for the world. Because empowering people is what you do and it is incredibly inspiring, and I really believe you. And I’m just so grateful that I can be a small part of it. Yeah.
Maren: Excellent. Thanks so much, Abby, for coming on the show.
Abby: Thank you for having me. I love you.
Maren: I love you too.
And I will leave it there.
Join me next episode, in which I interview ontological coach Jenn Shull.
I tell people, always meet yourself where you’re at. If you are a busy-busy-busy-busy-busy, there is a gift. And it’s enough to say, “I’m going to sit down for one minute with my eyes closed.” It’s enough.
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The Bodice Ripper Project is a production of Compassionate Creative, and was conceived and written by me, Maren Montalbano. It was edited by me and Andrew Carlson. The theme music was also written by yours truly. If you liked what you heard, I invite you to give this podcast a 5-star rating – I mean, why the heck not? – and I’ll see you next time.