The Bodice Ripper Project

Podcast Episode 29 – Confronting Perfectionism with Kara Morgan

—

by

maren
in

Maren sits down with comedienne and opera singer Kara Morgan to talk about perfectionism, anti-racism, and finding the intersection of what we do best and what we love the most.

Follow Maren:

Follow Kara:

Sign up for the Bodice Ripper Project newsletter and get exclusive behind-the-scenes content: http://www.bodiceripperproject.com/

Purchase Maren’s debut book, Pandemic Passion: A COVID-19 novella on Kindle

Transcript

(orchestra tuning)

Hello and welcome to The Bodice Ripper Project, an exploration of sexuality, feminism, and the journey to self-empowerment through the lens of a vulnerable artist.

I’m Maren Montalbano, opera singer, coach, and writer.

In this episode, you’ll hear me sit down with comedienne and opera singer Kara Morgan to talk about perfectionism, antiracism, and finding the intersection of what we do best and what we love the most.

So make yourself comfortable, loosen your bodice, and let’s begin!

(intro music plays)

Welcome back. Thank you so much for tuning in. I took a brief hiatus. You will notice that in this season, I’m not going to be posting weekly. It’s summertime, and I’ve got a bunch of different things going on. And I’m realizing that I’m having really difficult time keeping to a weekly schedule for some reason.

So, since this is not a job, I’m not getting paid for this podcast or anything, I’m going to set my own schedule and I know that you will be happy to listen to it whenever it comes. I know there are not people waiting with bated breath for the next episode to drop. That in of itself, honestly is a little bit freeing. I’m just going to be doing these catch as catch can, and giving them to the world.

I don’t want to take up too much time here in the beginning, because this is actually a very long interview and it’s super juicy, so I didn’t really want to cut anything from it.

But one thing I did want to mention is that in the interview, I start talking about the zone of genius and I couldn’t remember the name of the book. That book is The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks and I highly recommend it.

Interview

Maren: I am really excited to bring onto the show my dear friend, Kara Morgan. Kara Morgan started out as an opera singer but eventually found her true calling as a singing goofball. She now creates the Kara Morgan show on Tik Tok and Instagram and studies comedy improv at The Groundlings. She can also, and this is very important, she could also rap Psalm 23 in French, and she’s available for birthday parties.

Kara: Yeah. Great, thanks for that plug.

Maren: Welcome to The Bodice Ripper Project.

Kara: Yay, thank you Maren. So good to be here.

Maren: Yeah so I want to just, you know as a way of introduction, we’ve known each other for years and years and years and years.

Kara: Yes

Maren: And that’s really funny because both of us are 23. So, you know, really it’s been since the womb.

Kara: From birth, basically. Yeah, that’s right. Just reviewed all the memories. They go way back to there. Yeah.

Maren: But I wanted for my audience, I just want you to tell us a little bit about your story, how you got into comedy from music, you know from being an opera singer, and maybe the evolution of the Kara Morgan Show.

Kara: Oh, okay. Thanks Maren, and hello everybody. Yeah so, actually how we got to know each other Maren is through our kind of similar creative worlds. And at that time I think I had been recently transitioning out of the classical world. But yeah, I grew up in a very musical family and even though, I always liked kind of making comedic like tapes as a kid. I would record myself on tape and do that sort of thing. I think I always thought that I would do music, or at least by the time I was starting to consider what I would do music seemed to be the thing I seemed best at and loved. So pursued classical singing in undergrad.

I got to live in France for two years where I studied music and singing. And also got to teach as a, an English assistant in a public French high school. And through that experience of like singing there I decided I really did want to do opera, came back did a Masters in opera at the University of Maryland. And then pursued that for a while. That was for sure what I thought I wanted.

And I think, there was a period where I had some technical issues with my voice, a pretty painful period. But I think that experience of having to kind of take a step back from, at that time there was this production I was in Abduction, actually, and I had to kind of back out of it because I just couldn’t, I wasn’t up for the role. And that experience, as kind of devastating as it was kind of opened up some space.

And it was in that period when I first did a comedic music video. And it was so fun, the amount of joy I experienced in creating this. Like writing the song, and then recording it with my brother, who’s an amazing singer songwriter, and then filming it and editing it together, and then having this video. Like, I don’t think I’d ever, well I had experienced joy like that before, but it was when I was doing comedy in various moments throughout my life.

Honestly, that’s what the switch was. It was like, this is so fun. I love this so much. And with opera, it’s not that I didn’t love it, it was just that those moments were so much rarer. And I was so much more focused on my technique, and unable to have that kind of deep fulfillment, again, as frequently as I now knew I wanted to have it. You know, having this experience of making this, that first music video.

So it was a, you know, I guess relatively quick transition from there, although it did take several years to kind of fully say, okay, I am now going to be doing comedy and not pursue an opera career, not be auditioning for that sort of stuff anymore. Yeah, a couple of years, let’s say like two years after that sort of as I was making that transition I decided, okay, well then I think I’ll leave the DC area and move to either New York or LA, spent some time in both cities, and then decided to move to LA. And it’s now been close to nine years since I did that.

Maren: Yeah.

Kara: There you go.

Maren: What’s really interesting hearing that story, I don’t think I’ve actually ever heard that whole story. So, it’s kind of cool. I am so interested in what having vocal technical issues did to your, I don’t want to say self-worth, just identity, you know? Because I mean, I’ve had technical issues as well, I’ve lost my voice. Every time I’ve lost my voice I’ve been in this place where I’m like, “What even am I? If I can’t sing who am I?” You know? And last year there was a lot of that too, you know? Did you experience that as well? Was that really how that, like to be able to say, “well, who am I?” And then have this, “oh, I kind of like comedy,” and like, not only do I kind of like comedy it’s like, joyful. Is that?..

Kara: Yeah but, totally. And I definitely did have that experience, that crisis of identity in that moment, absolutely. And similarly, every time I’ve lost my voice, even just a cold, you know having a bad cold where I can’t sing, I go through that every time. And honestly when I was singing a lot colds were like one of my worst fears actually.

Maren: I know, me too.

Kara: It’s like, and I hated that. I hated that I would go through my life like hypervigilant if someone around me might be sick, just cause I, a cold would set me back for two weeks sometimes, and I hated that about myself. But yeah, basically I had switched teachers at this time when I was in the production of Abduction I was actually doing — my gosh, I can’t remember her name. Who’s the really high…?

Maren: Konstanze, is it Konstanze?

Kara: No, it was… Blondchen?

Maren: Oh, Blondchen. Yes.

Kara: I guess I was at Aspen one summer and I got to do a quartet. I think maybe I was Konstanze in that one, and that, that also was a sort of bad experience. I’m not a Konstanze, but anyway, I would be a Blondchen if it weren’t that I just don’t really have easy access to the, like there’s a high E in that, anyway.

This was one of these crazy experiences where I was able to do it in the audition, like miraculously. Anyway, but I was working with a teacher who really thought I should be able to do that sort of music. And so it just, you know, it wasn’t. Whatever, I don’t have to go into why that wasn’t a good fit. But I just did get into this period where I was trying to do some, I was trying to sing way, way up there, and then I was just kind of losing my middle voice. And then it was like a crash and burn sort of thing. And I had an understudy who like could do it in her sleep, which was horrible. I mean for me, it was great for them. She was fabulous. But having that experience of like, I have to back out of this because I can feel how unreliable I am in this role. It’s like, I can tell everybody’s stressed for me.

And at the time, somebody really close to me who kind of walked through that experience with me, I remember him saying, ” You know it’s, what we’re looking for in life is finding a sphere where what we do best intersects with what we love the most. And sometimes that is something we haven’t discovered yet.” That’s what he said to me. And I remember just feeling like, what are you talking about? I just finished this Masters in opera performance. What do you mean it’s something I haven’t discovered yet? It was, and I think that was that identity being threatened. You know what I mean? Like, no, I know what I want to do and it’s this. And this is terrible that I’m having to quit. You know, I finally booked a role, is the thing I thought I was going to be doing and wanted to do. And now I have to back out of it, and I’m comparing myself to these other completely solid singers in the cast.

And anyway, yeah, it was like one of those moments where it was really painful. But like now as I look back and I’ve thought about what he said many times over the years, he was exactly right. I hadn’t yet, I can’t say I hadn’t discovered it yet, in a sense that was true because it was a totally new sort of embodiment of it. But I had done comedy in a couple places in my life. And one in particular in college was a talent show where I did a kind of operatic spoof and picked a couple artists here and there, but put it together with this pianist friend of mine who is so talented and I’ll just never forget it. Like, the whole school was there. And it just like, people went crazy. Like just like loved it. And, that was one of these, it was a very similar experience of like, this was the greatest thing I’ve ever done, you know? And so it’s like I had tasted that before, but hadn’t really realized like, yeah, you can do that.

Maren: That’s amazing. And it’s hard to, I know that sometimes it’s the painful, not sometimes it’s usually always the painful experiences that lead to the most growth, probably because we don’t want to change until it’s painful. But I’m also really intrigued about that story because you struggle with perfectionism, and when you’re an opera singer it’s very easy to really go down the rabbit hole with perfectionism.

Kara: Yes. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah it, was there anything more you were gonna say or ask about that?

Maren: I mean, just go ahead and talk about it. Cause it sounds like you have a lot to say.

Kara: Yeah, no, that’s such a great parallel to make. Yeah, it’s been a recent discovery how kind of crippling perfectionism is for me. You know I think it’s sometimes in our culture something that people kind of throw off like offhandedly, like, oh yeah I’m a perfectionist. And even maybe as a badge of honor, like I get things right. You know what I mean? I do, I’m not gonna just do a shoddy job on a thing. And I think that’s kind of, if I had used that word, I would have thought of it that way too. Like, yeah. And I will add that there are benefits to being a perfectionist. It’s not all terrible, though it may be mostly terrible.

Maren: You set the bar really high though. I think, I mean, as also a perfectionist, I feel like where my perfectionism serves me is that I set the bar very high. And so I know that if I’m at least coming close to that bar that I’m doing a pretty dang good job.

Kara: Yeah, and you know, I know about you Maren from our long years of friendship, and I’ve been impressed. And I think this highlights the positive side of it. When you’re learning a role I’ve been so inspired to hear about your process in learning a role because to me it doesn’t seem like you’re becoming a slave to that voice. It’s like you found a method that enables you to learn something in a way that gives you a great amount of freedom when it comes to performing it. And I think that is, you know, maybe there’s a better word than perfectionism about it. Maybe that’s just like, great preparation. You know what I mean? But yeah, they’re mixed in with each other. And I in general like, for your listeners, I’ve been in the last maybe eight months creating a lot of comedy centered on perfectionism and actually trying to put a face to that voice.

I had been working with a therapist for several months who was very, one of her methods was to name your sub-personalities so that it’s not just a jumbled mess of, “in this situation I do this,” and then, “when I get really, really anxious, you know, I don’t know why, but this kind of is what I do,” and in this situation… And she would really kind of encourage me to name, she would encourage me to use a name. Like one of the names she came up with was like Saint Agnes of the Holy Merciful, like this sort of nun character that was just like, needed every interaction to go a certain way. So anyway I had been, and then she would say, “You know this would be funny, this person sounds funny to me. You should do something in your comedy with it.” And it took me several months before I kind of got an idea that I thought would be funny to me.

And then I started doing these sub-personalities. And at first it was like the Competitor. I had names for them, one was Anxious Mary Poppins. Then there was like the Introvert. There was the Diva. There was, you know, I started doing them and somebody suggested the Perfectionist. And I remember when they did I was like, no, that’s not funny. Like, the person is not funny to me.

And all of this to say that I’ve been realizing that naming them is a huge first start, or first step. It’s like, they’re no longer this sort of amorphous sort of scary thunder cloud that can just show up. And then after doing the Perfectionist and then doing many, many episodes of the Perfectionist, it started to become clear that I didn’t want, actually even the very first episode, I meant that person, that character to be meaner. And somehow when I was filming it I had no idea it would become this long series. There was just some sort of instinct to make her a little bit more of a companion, and I’m so glad that happened.

Because the other thing I want to say about it is, and this goes back to recognizing that there are things this voice is trying, this voice is trying to help you. And when you make them an enemy it’s harder to see that. And it’s, I think it’s just harder to move through it. So anyway, yeah, I don’t know. That’s I think the main thing I wanted to say.

Maren: I think that’s really great. And I love the Perfectionist and I’m going to be linking to all of your stuff on my show notes.

Kara: Oh, thank you.

Maren: So I really hope that people check you guys, check you out. But you’re right. Like most of the, I don’t know if it’s all actually of the Perfectionist scenes start out with, “How’s it going over there?” You know?

Kara: Exactly.

Maren: Which is really great, you know?

Kara: And actually the very first one, and there’ve been a couple like this, but the very first one I’m actually the one to ask, I’m using “they, them” for this character now because it just feels the most, but I ask them that. You know, but then it became that they’re always asking me that. But yeah, it’s true. It’s like there’s a deep concern about most of choices I’m making, not being the right ones, but there’s a concern there. You know?

Maren: What I think is really interesting too is that the move from opera to comedy, comedy to me is such a imperfect art, you know? It’s, and perhaps that’s because I’m not a comedian, I’m not like as trained or anything like that in what comedy is and how to do it well. But I feel like there’s a lot, I mean especially with improv, improv is you know, it’s very ephemeral. It’s whatever happens in the moment. And sometimes you screw up, but it’s okay because that moment is gone, you know? So.

Kara: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s such a great point. Like, the ways in which I feel more free in comedy and in the ways where the perfectionism is able to work its way in. And improv, you know it’s really interesting you mentioned that too, because I’ve done a lot of improv, studied improv with the groundlings, at the Groundlings school and theater, and I love it. I’ve had moments of enormous exhilaration.

And yet, I would say actually sketch has felt a little more of a fit because there’s a little more of an ability to control it and write it and create a thing that I feel, “This is great. I got it right. Yes, I’m a good memorizer. Great, let’s put it out there. I know it’s going to be great.” And you know, with the comedy I’m making I write, I shoot, I fine tune it, and that, and that is- what’d you say?

Maren: You star in it. You’re all the actors, like that’s the thing.

Kara: Exactly. Exactly. I can craft this thing to be exactly what I want and I can get it right. So it’s like in a sometimes good, sometimes bad way that creeps in there. But in improv, you’re absolutely right, you can’t do that. And I’m, I continue to struggle with the letting go of it. When, you know when it’s going great, it’s awesome. But that energy of like, “How is this going to go? I don’t know,” is something I still feel when I go out there anytime. And I think everybody does.

But then the ability, just like you said, to let it go, I still don’t feel the amount of freedom I want. I still like will in my head be going over the thing that it didn’t go the way I wanted. And so anyway, for what it’s worth I’m facing that, I’m trying that. But it doesn’t feel quite as much of like a shoe, you know, fitting as like let’s say sketch comedy and video sketch. Yeah.

Maren: Yeah. And I think that that just goes to show that there’s a little bit of something for everybody. Like, you don’t necessarily have to be excellent at improv in order for comedy to be the thing that you do. And that’s great. And I think that’s what it is for all kinds of art, right? Like everybody has got a unique thing that they’re bringing to the table and you just sort of have to find your niche. You know?

Kara: Yes. Again, like the thing my friend said. If people can picture, I have like my hand doing the wax on, wax off thing. It’s like where what you love the most intersects with what you do the best. I mean, I really believe that that is what we’re looking for.

Maren: Yeah.

Kara: Where our gifts meet our desires, and finding that niche. Because also I think like it being easy is an aspect of sustainability. Like just even going back to the Blondchen thing, like I could do it. There was an audition where I did do it. But when you have the understudy there who can do it in her sleep, like how long are you going to bang your head against that wall? You know, eventually I think you’re just like, oh gosh, this is so much work, you know?

Maren: Yeah.

Kara: So finding where there’s that ease is I think a crucial aspect of it.

Maren: Yeah I believe, now I can’t remember who it is, there’s a book that talks about the zone of genius and that like, the idea is you really do need to find your zone of genius because that is it. It’s the thing that you uniquely are very good at. And you’re you, you have ease when you do it. And other people work really hard to do that, but no, you, you don’t have to work so hard. And that is what we’re all kind of trying to figure out what that zone is.

Kara: Absolutely, a hundred percent.

Maren: Yeah. Yeah and if you’re staying in your, I think one of them is called like the zone of drudgery, where it’s like, you don’t even like what you’re doing and you have to work hard at it. Then you know that’s like, definitely move out of that zone.

Kara: Yes. I mean I really do believe that, and I know that’s easier said than done. But I feel so blessed in my life to have made moves that have enabled me to do what I love. And to have found that you have enough, you know? Yeah.

Maren: Well let’s talk, I’m going to move the conversation a little bit to the right, or to the left. I’m not sure. We’re taking a turn. We’re going around a corner.

Kara: Okay. I’m ready. Hanging on.

Maren: I want to talk about 2020.

Kara: Yeah. Okay.

Maren: Yeah, and just how like eye-opening it has been for us as a society, specifically with regards to racism. I know, again, like something you wrote to me was that perfectionism has some roots in white supremacy. And I’ve been going through my own like, I’ve been teaching, learning a lot about my own biases and my own journey of anti-racism. But I want to hear about yours and how the Perfectionist, the work that you’re doing with the Perfectionist fits in there.

Kara: Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah I love that question. I just love that you asked it cause it’s like, it’s something I want to talk about and it hasn’t easily come up, and maybe I just need to come out and say it more. So anyway, I appreciate the question. Yeah, over 2020, and especially in May of 2020 when we were in the heat of the protests and, with George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor. I was told about this organization that’s here in LA called White People for Black Lives. And it’s an arm of the national organization SURJ, Standing Up for Racial Justice. It’s like the action arm of that in Los Angeles. And I am so impressed with this organization.

You know, I think so many of us white people at that time were so desperate to, you know for many of us it’s like, finally, you know, where have we been? This is not a new thing. But thankfully at least finally waking up. And I was by some of my activist friends out here told about this organization. And it’s what our partners, our coalition partners like Black Lives Matter, have encouraged us as white people to become involved in, to be educated in a space where we’re able to make mistakes, you know? White People for Black Lives is a white space where we’re educating ourselves about our own privilege and about the culture, the white supremacy culture and that has harmed all of us. Certainly some of us more than others, but ourselves included.

And one of the key sort of components of the orientation they give you when you join this, or express interest in joining it is discovering our stake in fighting or dismantling white supremacy culture. Which was a new concept that really meant a lot to me because I think throughout my life, as I’ve looked at issues of injustice, racial injustice, my presiding emotion was guilt, you know? And it’s not that that’s inappropriate per se, but is it going to be efficient? Is it going to be functional? Is that emotion is what’s going to spur people on to actually dismantle white supremacy culture. It may, in some cases. But what they’ve found is that when we understand how it’s actually harming ourselves and when we find our own personal stake in this work, that’s when we actually become really involved and start to actually do the work.

So they kind of went through some of the main characteristics of white supremacy culture. And there are many, like paternalistic thinking, all or nothing thinking, productivity over- it’s like people at the expense of productivity, perfectionism. And you know so that one was the one that was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. You’re telling me that this is a characteristic of white supremacy culture? And to kind of, you know if folks that are listening haven’t thought about this, the idea is that we have a culture that values things being perfect over the health of the whole. And not all cultures idolize things being all tucked-in and neat and presentational even.

I think what we find when somebody suffers from perfectionism is that what we see isn’t what’s going on. Under the surface is this massive anxiety and insecurity and effort to keep up this, even if it’s not intended to be a facade. Even if it’s like, “no, I want my work to be…” Yeah, and when we demand in our culture, in our workplaces, in our organizations, in our educational institutions that things be perfect, we’re then marginalizing people that might prioritize connection, that might prioritize communication over something being perfect. It’s like, are we connecting? Are we communicating? Are we?

And other cultures would prioritize those things above the sort of semblance of something looking nice, you know? And if we just by default say that, and I appreciate you letting me just kind of ramble about this because I’m trying to put it forward in the best, you know, in the most perfect way. But I think one of the things I learned is that, you know, we think that, oh yeah, things being perfect is good, and that’s how things should be. But it isn’t the way things have to be. But if we create a society where it’s expected that you’re going to be as efficient and productive as possible. You’re going to create things as fast and as perfect as possible. When it’s just expected that those things are there, then people who might prioritize other things or have different ways of going about any number of tasks don’t measure up to that, then suddenly they are marginalized. And marginalized in only one more way of all the other ways that we are marginalizing other people groups and cultures.

Anyway, so kind of understanding that about perfectionism, that I am suffering from this thing that I thought was just a standard of society. And not only am I suffering. If I am suffering, a white person who is basically neurotypical, certainly in terms of my ability to fit into the educational system that’s here, I am neurotypical. If I’m suffering from it, I can now imagine how other people, different ability, different maybe not typical, neurodivergent, people of color, different cultures, then I can see even more how they are suffering from this thing. And yet I have my own stake in it, in dismantling it.

Maren: Yeah. That was great. That was really great. When you were talking about this, you brought up something in my head. There’s a group called the Nap Ministry. Have you ever heard of them? They are led by people of color and their whole thing is basically like lap, laps- naps, naps are a form of protest or they’re a form of resistance.

Kara: Oh.

Maren: Yeah, it’s great. And I, you know for me, over 2020 I’ve been actually building naps into my workday, you know? And I find that I’m actually more productive when I do that. You know because before that it was just all like, okay I’m tired after lunch, but I’m just going to push through, I’m just going to drink some more coffee and I’m just going to push through, push through. And actually I’m not as productive. I’m just fighting the sleepiness and, you know like, spending a lot of energy yelling at myself.

Kara: Yeah.

Maren: And when it comes to the racism part of it and the white supremacist part of that, there’s a lot of, you know one of the biggest tropes about black people that comes from slavery, right, straight from slavery, is that they are lazy, right? That black people are lazy, which is not true at all. It’s just a way to keep that group of people down, you know? And so I think that to participate in these forms of resistance or protest or just, you know, willingness to change the paradigm just one person at a time, then I think that that’s how we have to do it.

Kara: Exactly. And to just start to question why is it that we think we have to work, you know, 10 hours a day or whatever it is? You know this, the God of Capitalism and productivity and how it exhausts and uses us, all of us. But again, the way the system is set up, it abuses certain people more than others, even if we are all suffering from it. So yeah, to even introduce the idea of like, a nap.

You know the crazy thing is what you’re saying is true. That it’s, it makes you more productive. You know what I mean? But yeah, that just starting to question. Like, no. Our lives are more than what we can produce and how well we can appear. And going back to perfectionism and, ugh, yeah. It’s just so crucial for us to see that, I think both for how it’s harming us and how it’s harming our brothers and sisters, you know, people of color.

Maren: Yeah. So thank you for talking about that. I really appreciate that.

Kara: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh gosh, my pleasure. Yeah.

Maren: So, when I talk about bodice rippers this is the question that I ask everybody. I use the bodice as a metaphor for the thing that’s restricting us, and we want to rip it off and let our true selves out. So what for you is the bodice, right now?

Kara: Yeah. I mean, I think this feeling of needing to get things right. You know, so you can call that perfectionism. You can also call that possibly OCD. This is something we didn’t talk about on the call.

Maren: Do you want to talk about it? We can talk about it right now, if you want.

Kara: I mean sure, yeah. I mean, it’s a relatively new thing for me too. I was diagnosed with OCD in February. So it’s kind of an interesting thing to know, okay. Like, so wait, is this equivalent to the perfectionism? Is it a separate thing? And I think it’s kind of yes and no. It’s a disorder that is oriented in the brain and yet culture feeds it and the culture, you know, we’ve just been talking about. But yeah, this feeling of wanting to be free of it, of this voice, that’s I’m realizing more and more is keeping me from enjoying life, really. Like even feeling free to take a week off and not be productive, not be creating, or to let the corners of my bed be untucked. It can, it takes so many forms. Or have an evening to just spend with a loved one, you know? Wanting to be free from that voice that will only let me do those things if this, and then if this, and if that.

So, yeah, I think I’m very much in a place where I’m like very deep in therapy with the OCD. And maybe one of the most empowering things I’ve just learned about that is, and if any of your listeners have OCD I hope this is helpful, but rumination is honestly one of the most difficult things. It’s the compulsion I struggle with the most. And that’s like thoughts that kind of go on and on and on and spiral kind of downwards where you’re unable to let a certain thing go.

And this therapist that I was listening to was saying that you do have a choice, that you don’t have a choice about the thoughts that enter your head. No one’s trying to say that you can not have a thought come. But when it comes to ruminating you do have a choice to not go down that spiral. And of course that’s a very ingrained road for me. But I guess with the bodice ripper, it’s like recognizing the agency when I do have it and choosing to not go down that road.

Even if, and the compulsion you think, again, it’s like it’s trying to protect you from something. It’s trying to protect you. But what about this? You know, are you sure about this person? What about this? And, you know. But, the compulsion is trying to protect you, but it’s not working. You’re getting more and more constrained and constricted in this narrowing and narrowing cycle of thought. And so I think honestly for me right now, and this is barely really answering your question very honestly, because all of this is very recent, the therapy and stuff I’m working through, but it’s recognizing that moment when I have a choice to not spiral any further than I have. And to trust that by letting that line of thinking go, you know, the thing that I’m afraid of, that the thought cycle is trying to protect me from, maybe it’s not as disastrous as that voice does think it is. And to trust the possibility that I can let that go and see what might happen.

Maren: That’s so beautiful. I think that even if you’re not diagnosed with OCD, I think we all have a certain level of rumination.

Kara: Hmm, yes.

Maren: I know I do. And granted I haven’t gone to a therapist to see, you know, but I think that we all do have a choice. And sometimes the reason why we go down that spiral is just because it’s a habit. And it’s always about being mindful about the thoughts that we think, right? Not to repress those thoughts, not to say, “that’s a bad thought,” but just to know like, “ah, look at that, that’s a thought.”

Kara: Yes.

Maren: And I think there are many people who are just walking around the world on automatic and they really aren’t being mindful. And I truly believe that the best way to grow is to slow down and pay attention to what’s happening in every moment. Sometimes each moment is sadness, or anger, or jealousy, or you know, all of that stuff. But like, I think that those are all okay, because they’re all a part of the human experience. It’s, it’s just that like, you don’t want to indulge in it, right? Like, I don’t want to like, have like a long pity party or anything like that, but you can’t just say, “Oh, that’s a bad feeling. I don’t want to feel that. I’m going to just put it in this box.” Because eventually it’s going to come out of the box.

Kara: Exactly. Exactly. No, that’s exactly it. I think it’s, and this has been a difficult thing for me with my treatment, mindfulness treatment for OCD, because they’re very intentional about saying, just a quick sort of three-step thing I’ve been going through is like, we over attend to negative thoughts, which means we overvalue them, and then we over respond to them. And the answer to that is to accept them. But when your compulsion is to ruminate, which is also thinking, I’ve found it a little tricky to navigate, “well, wait a second, okay, I’m supposed to accept these thoughts, but I’m not supposed to ruminate. How do you do that?” And I think what you’re describing is exactly it.

Things come to us unbidden, often it seems that way. Perhaps as we get further down this path we can catch things quicker and stuff. But we certainly don’t, we can’t stop, as I said a second ago, thoughts from entering our head. But I know very well the feeling and the shape of when I am latching onto something, maybe it’s a conversation I had with someone, and just circle like, “What? Why did they say that? What does that mean? Why would they think that?” You know, that experience of latching on to experience and starting to circle and circle and circle and circle around. And I know the feeling of: I am intentionally engaging in this downward spiral.

And I think what you’re describing is the distinction. It’s not resisting the fact that something negative has happened because that creates more conflict in the mind and the body. There’s something there that you don’t want there. You’re pushing it away, and I can feel that too. So it’s I think recognizing, okay, this has happened again. I’ve been triggered by this, or I’m upset by this, but I’m choosing to not solve that problem right now. I’m choosing to let it go. I’m choosing to not further ruminate on this thing. Yeah.

Maren: Yeah. For me it’s a lot of focusing on asking myself where is it in my body? Where is it my body? Okay, now I can just slow down and notice okay, where exactly in my body? What shape is it? What color is it? And it’s a little bit like naming it in a way, you know? Once I can really identify it then I can either, you know, in my mind I can have it dissipate, o r I can just let it sort of be there. And a lot of times the moment I notice it, it starts dissipating right away. So it’s almost like it just wants to be noticed, you know?

Kara: And this will be if somebody, like, I’m curious when you’re going through this process, is it after whatever upset you? Is it after it? Or is it kind of in the moment? Or does it depend? I’m curious about that.

Maren: So it depends. I’m thinking specifically, so, today, this is going to be fun. Like here I am being vulnerable in front of my audience, which is exactly what I wanted to do.

Kara: Well I’m honored you’d share, it’s helpful. It’s very helpful.

Maren: I had a very heart to heart conversation with a friend of mine yesterday, and it was really good. And we had been having some problems and we cleared a lot of the air and I felt really great afterwards. But there was something about as the evening wore on and I started thinking about it again, my thoughts started going to the, “Oh, but wait. He said this thing and I didn’t respond the way that I wanted to.” Like, maybe I wanted to say something more, you know? And then this morning I woke up and I had even more of those thoughts which were, “Yeah, yeah! I didn’t say what I wanted to say.” You know?

Kara: Yes. Oh, I so know this. Yes.

Maren: And I kinda caught myself and I was like, “Well, wait a minute. What’s going on?” Because I actually did feel good about that conversation. I think we did say all the things we needed to say to one another. But there was something inside me that was still like trying to defend me and I, I didn’t need defending. It felt like I wasn’t safe. I was feeling this like anxiety and sadness, like deep, deep sadness. And so I basically said, “Okay, I’m allowed to be sad.” Like, it’s okay for me to be sad in my own room, you know? And just see where this goes. And so I let myself be sad, and I cried for a little bit. And I didn’t even need to just say like, I’m sad because XYZ or like, I didn’t have to articulate anything. I think I just wanted to be sad, and I just wanted to have some kind of physical release. And then I went about my day and I felt a lot better.

Kara: Oh my gosh. That is so cool.

Maren: Yeah.

Kara: Honestly that is so inspiring to me because you have just described exactly, exactly what happens to me. I actually have a form of OCD called ROCD, which is Relationship OCD. So a lot of my rumination is around people close to me in my life. Romantic relationships are especially triggering, and that is exactly what I will do. I will review. I’ll have a great evening, you know a date. I’ll come back and then it’s like, “Oh my gosh.” How did, he said this, and you- anyway it’s exactly what you’re describing. And even at the moment it was like, basically fine.

And just to first of all say that there was a part of me that doesn’t feel safe, because that is, I’m realizing, it’s like this hyper protective voice that’s just ready to cut the throat of anybody, you know? So just first of all recognizing that. And then to say, because it’s like I just then immediately give in to that voice. It’s like, “You’re right. You’re right! You need to go to bat with that person.” But then to say, no, trust that in the moment what you did was right. But then also to let yourself have those feelings. I just, I love that Maren.

Maren: Oh, thanks. Well, hopefully that’s helpful. I mean it sounds like it’s helpful to you and hopefully that’s helpful to somebody else who’s listening. We’re all human, you know, and I think that that’s something that we forget. When we’re interacting with other people we see other people as like, oh, those people have it together. But actually the real truth is nobody has it together. We’re all just kind of bumbling around and bumping into one another and trying to figure it out.

Kara: Yes. And then the other thing that you just said made me think of is we’re all human but kind of from the opposite perspective. I can tend to the fists are up, ready, but it’s like what if I thought about the more “us” dynamic of that person also having all of these same insecurities? And if you kind of create a space that protects the “us” there, what does that do to that worrier just at alert inside? What if that person, and again not to send them off because they won’t go away, but what if you put them to use to sort of defend the “us” space as opposed to just the “me”, you know?

Maren: Yeah, that’s a really great way of putting it. I love that.

Kara: I wonder, I did wonder if it’s possible.

Maren: I’ll have to try that. All right, well I think that’s all the time we have. But this has been an amazing conversation.

Kara: Oh, I loved it. I loved it, Maren. What an honor to be on your show. I am a fan of you.

Maren: I am a fan of you as well, and it is an honor to have you on my show. I want to encourage everybody to check out Kara Morgan. You’re on Instagram and Tik Tok, @karaleemo.

Kara: Yeah, totally.

Maren: And you also have a Patreon, right?

Kara: Oh, I do, yes.

Maren: Why don’t you talk about that for a second?

Kara: Oh yeah, I created a Patreon. Oh let’s see, I think it’s been about three months, three and a half months ago, and it’s been such a joy. I kind of put my behind-the-scenes stuff up there. I have this wonderful community of folks there that respond to the behind-the-scenes stuff I put up there with new ideas. And I’m really excited to share that this series I’m doing right now we’re building up to the Knight’s Ball. That’s where all my characters are gonna meet. The person kind of heading this up is Sir Brad, he’s a Knight of the Round Table who used to be a court jester, but found himself a Knight of the Round Table. Anyway, they’re all going to be at this Knight’s Ball. And one of the main characters that’s been newer is a wizard named Meryl who’s Merlin’s sister, anyway, was inspired by one of my patrons who saw a whig I had and thought that that could be Gandalf’s younger sister. And anyway, this Patreon has just been this wonderful kind of community of sharing things, getting ideas, making things based on those ideas. And yeah, the the lowest tier is $4 and you get a sexy sweater vest photo of the Perfectionist sent to your house, if you do that level.

Maren: Yeah, it’s great. I think that if you check out Kara and if you like her stuff and you want to be more involved in the actual, yeah.

Kara: You don’t have to do it but if want to, certainly it’s there for you, yeah. And every, basically all my profiles are @karaleemo, and then that’s, you know, also Facebook and YouTube and those too. K-A-R-A-L-E-E-M-O, @karaleemo.

Maren: Great. Awesome. All right Kara, thank you so much for joining me.

Kara: Thank you, Maren. What a joy.

And I will leave it there.

Join me next episode, in which I speak with acupuncturist and sexual health specialist Christine Delozier about sexual health and nutrition…and we even talk about how to do oral sex right.

It’s an act of kindness to our partner, and sex should be kind. You know, we should be considering our partner’s pleasure as equal to our own. And so when we do something like that we go into it with our whole selves. We appreciate our partner’s body. We savor that experience ourselves.  It is a giving experience but we also can choose how we view that experience as well.

That interview is for the listeners who have been missing my dirty stories.

If you haven’t already, go ahead and subscribe to my newsletter at bodiceripperproject.com. I do send out emails whenever a podcast drops and also some little love notes every once in a while.

Also I love hearing from you guys. If there was something that particularly struck you about this, or any episode, go ahead and reach out to me.

I’m on Instagram @supermaren.

The Bodice Ripper Project is a production of Compassionate Creative, and was conceived and written by me, Maren Montalbano. It was edited by me and Andrew Carlson. The theme music was also written by yours truly. If you liked what you heard, I invite you to give this podcast a five star rating. You think it doesn’t make a difference, but it actually does. And I’ll see you next time.